I speak with cohosts of the Both/And podcast Jared Janes and Jason Snyder on memetic mediation, the importance of psychological safety in changing minds, metamodernism, the limits of rational systems, Robert Kegan’s 5 stages framework of human development, the extreme reactions to the rise of woke culture, the lonely valley of losing a belief system, holding liminal space, contemplative practices, how enlightenment feels like falling backwards, playfulness, and the praxis Game B.